Welcome And The Core Problem

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Start Younger, the podcast about outgrowing porn, understanding our sexuality, and building healthy recovery practices.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Porn is reaching boys sooner than ever, which means helping and healing has to start sooner, too. Let's start younger.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Welcome, friends and family, to the Start Younger podcast, where we get to talk about all things recovery starting at younger ages. For any teen, any parent who is interested in such a thing. I am here with my heroes, Drew Boa and Sir Douglas Carpenter. Never meet your heroes, guys, unless it's Drew and Doug. Then it's totally fine, is what they say.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

I think each of us has a hero part, a victim part, and a villain part. We got all three. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Maybe we should just jump into that from there. That sounds like a podcast of its own.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yeah. I mean, you know, it is easy to view other people as a hero, or it can be easy to view other people as a villain. Sometimes it can be easy to view ourselves as a victim. And when we're talking about resistance to recovery, you might view that as a problem, as the villain. And I think today's episode can help you reframe it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Well, you just set us up beautifully there to talk about this idea of what happens, what do I do if me as a teenager or a young person, or me as a parent to a teen or a young person has resistance to recovery? There seems to be some unease, some inability to really commit to the process. Maybe not even, there's just not a desire. There might be a disagreement on values of where they stand on these topics. And this is something that comes up for our parents and teens all the time how do we deal with that? What what do I do? What are the questions I need to ask? And so to start us off, that's that's where we find ourselves. How do we engage such a concept?

Avoiding Power Struggles With Teens

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Well, the number one thing you don't want to do is turn this into a power struggle. So I I would definitely warn any parent who is approaching this topic with one of your children about pornography use to not make this a power struggle, just like we say with anything. I think it has to be approached with a sense of curiosity, like talking to them about what you actually like about porn? How do you feel when you watch it? When are you most likely to use it? What happens afterwards? One question I like is if you went 30 days without it, what would your life look like? You know, you have to approach this with a sense of curiosity, not like you're gonna stop, I'm gonna make you stop, you can't use this, you're just gonna get into a power struggle that is not gonna end well.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Let's talk about that. What would it look like to be in a power struggle?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Well, I think saying some of those things that I just said, like you're not gonna do this, I pay for your phone, I'll take your phone away from you, which might be consequences in the end if is completely out of control, but that's not how you want to approach this. You want to approach with a sense of curiosity, understanding. You know, do they have questions about sex? And we're gonna have a whole episode about how to talk to your kids about sex, but they might be trying to answer some questions for themselves. Like it's important to find out, okay, what's going on for you here in a compassionate way, not a shaming way.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah, something I see with uh a lot of parents and teens in this dynamic, too, is once we get into that power struggle, the teen feels this immense sense of not being heard. Their voice, their opinions, their curiosities, their questions no longer matter. It kind of turns into this mom or dad's way or the high way. And oftentimes the teen may not be in this explicit, I just want to watch porn and no one can tell me differently. They're asking a lot of complex questions inside that they may not even have the words for. And what the power struggle does is it shuts down really any lanes of healthy conversation to really help us understand what's going on underneath it

Curiosity Questions That Open Trust

SPEAKER_00 4:36

all.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Right. A power struggle feels more like control than connection.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

And shaming because you don't want them to feel like there's something wrong with them because they have these desires, because they have this curiosity. We all went through this. We all went through puberty. We all went through a stage of life where we were had questions and wanted to know things and what do things look like. So you have to approach that with that sense of curiosity and not shame and not make it a moral issue in that you're you're bad. You're bad because you want to do this. There's something wrong with you because you want to do this. That's not the case. They're just being a human and trying to understand more about human behavior.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Sometimes the point of resistance might be viewing porn as a problem or viewing it as neutral. Sometimes the point of resistance might be not wanting to get help. And it's really important to be curious about what's underneath that. Like what are you afraid might happen if you joined a group or got some one-on-one support? And they might have some really good reasons for being cautious.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Very good reasons. I mean, if you listen to all of us tell our stories, right? Pornography, masturbation was all a big core piece of our survival structure in some way, shape, or form. And yet we don't have words for that as teenagers. So it comes out as resistance. Our subconscious essentially defends against taking it away in order to keep something we really think we need in order to survive some of the unease, the emotional

Why Resistance Can Make Sense

SPEAKER_00 6:20

difficulty, the trauma, the pain, whatever it is that we're experiencing at those moments.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Well, and I think you have to find out, okay, why is your teen or even child watching this? Is it because no one's talking to them about sex? No one's educating them about it. Are their friends starting to talk about it at school and they don't know what's going on? So they just want to be informed. You know, do they feel pressured to want to be able to keep up with the other kids? Has another kid exposed it to them? Like, find out where this is coming from.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

I think that's spot on, Doug. And I've I've been having this conversation with a couple parents basically currently. And what keeps coming up is this idea of it almost feels like a family betrayal in a way. And so I I want to, you know, speak to the parents out there and give yourself some grace. I I can understand that this feels shocking in a lot of ways, and it feels hard to understand. And yet I think there's an invitation there to get really curious about your sexual story and where are some of your resistances coming from? Where are these strong emotions pulling from that your son or daughter getting involved or information coming out that your reactions are going places you didn't think they might go?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Another important point in

Parents Managing Shock And Reactions

SPEAKER_01 7:49

what you just said is I think we as parents and parents listening out there, you need to not be surprised that your teen is looking at porn. I think in today's generation and in our society, and how free it is and how easy it is to access, you probably should just assume that they are, no matter how much of a little angel they are. I mean, probably the last 20 years, I've really not met a 15-year-old boy in my office who hasn't been watching porn. You know, and we as parents, you know, we grew up in a day where sex was in everything advertising. So much advertisement was about sex. Well, that's still the case, but imagine imagine what that's like on the internet and how prevalent and how easy it is to access. So, first of all, we need to get past the shock value and just assume that it's happening. So that way you don't go to them and go, Are you watching porn? Like, approach that differently. Hey, I'm wondering when you've been online, if you've if you've encountered this. What's that been like for you? And how did you feel? And what did you do with that? Like, were you worried that you couldn't come and talk to me about it? Like, did you think I would freak out? Like, I think you have to open the door, but you have to assume that they're being exposed to it.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

You can actually do a good litmus test here of imagining your son, your daughter coming up to you and sharing something about where they've been sexually or they're watching porn, and start to get a gauge of your reaction. Would it mirror some of this curiosity, the gentle tone, the kindness and compassion, or is there some rage there? Is there uh sadness and intensity and anger? And that can give you a really good idea of I probably need to do some work on this before we get into a conversation like that. Because that can be one of the key junction points in a teen's journey is how mom or dad handles that first conversation of letting them know they're they're somewhere sexually they didn't think they would be or don't want to be.

Making Space For Not Being Ready

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

You have to provide them a safe place to be able to open up and talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

And I would argue that you have to provide a safe place for them to not want help, for them to not be ready for recovery either.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Wow, I love that one. Yes. And I know for all the parents out there, that sounds incredibly difficult. So say more, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

You can reframe what might seem like resistance to recovery as courageous honesty. Like if your kid tells you, I don't want to join that group, I don't want to read that book, I don't really think that the help you're offering is for me, that is exactly what you want to hear because it's the truth. It means that your child feels safe enough to be real with you, to not give you the fake good Christian answer. And you can celebrate that. That's actually an invitation to intimacy. It's saying, hey, I'm trusting you with this part of me that I realize could have negative consequences. I could get rejection, I could get punishment. But when you receive that kind of response, it's almost an audition. It's almost like saying, hmm, I wonder how mom and dad's gonna respond to this. And it's it's an incredible opportunity to build trust and to have grace and space that you don't want to lose.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

That's very correct. A hundred percent. And I think what I see from many parents I talk to is taking that moment and thinking this is the time for my greatest two-hour lecture I have on why sex is best in God's design and in marriage and all of these things that if we're honest, we probably haven't rehearsed that well to feel that good about it, right? And the teens I talk to, all they hear is I'm a bad guy, I'm a bad girl for being in this space, and God's disappointed in me, my parents are disappointed in me, everyone's upset with me. And why do I like this stuff? I don't know. There

Triggers And Sharing Your Own Story

SPEAKER_00 12:47

must be something wrong with me. And it creates that disconnection and that isolation that hurts the process. Whereas I would recommend circling back to what Doug said earlier of getting so, so curious. Tell me more about it. What what intrigues you about it? What fills up in your heart about it? What are the desires you feel like this is meeting? I get it. Sex is a powerful thing. What problem is it solving for you?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yes. Is it solving loneliness, discontent, anger?

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Anxiety is a big one for the team.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Anxiety is a big one. The other thing I want to caution parents about is you might have a teen say to you, This is my only sexual outlet. I'm trying to be pure. I'm trying to knock that not act out with my boyfriend, girlfriend. And like this helps me not do that, like, because this is my sexual outlet. And so you also have to approach that with compassion and curiosity and understand that they're trying to use this in a helpful way, even though there are definitely problematic things about it. And then talk to them about their sexual urges and how to handle those. You know, it's not too young to help them start identifying their triggers. Like, when do you feel most triggered? Like when I'm after it's been a long school day and I'm bored and I'm home alone. Or late at night when I feel lonely or I feel isolated. Like help them figure out what their triggers are and how do we really address that trigger instead of just turning to porn as a quick answer and a quick fix?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

And I think those are amazing, awesome questions. Keep going to those. And another piece that continues to make this complex is I think one of the best ways to get your teenager to really hear you on this is to share your triggers or your story at certain points of what did this look like for you. Otherwise, at times it can come off as that professor lecture series again. And teens are really done with that in about a million ways. I know I'm gonna do it as a parent. I'm gonna think I've the greatest lecture ever. And once they listen to this, they will turn 180. But it is it is so much more valuable for them to hear from your story of where did you mess this up? Where did you need to ask for help?

SPEAKER_02 15:18

And think about how long it takes most people before they truly start pursuing freedom and healing. Think about how old you were when you entered recovery. And maybe that could be part of what you vulnerably share. That I didn't get started with getting help until I was an adult or until I was already married. And that can just help to create space for them to go at their own pace.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Well, I think asking them too, okay, what do you like about porn? But also ask them, what do you not like about porn? What kind of problems do you see with this? What does it cause and cause for you?

Resources And Teaching Self Control

SPEAKER_02 16:06

And there is a great resource I would recommend for education about the harmful effects of porn. It's a free documentary series called Brainheart World. You can get it at brainheartworld.org. It's by Fight the New Drug. They've got a lot of great content. But that in particular would be great to watch with your teen or to even have a group watch it. They do it at schools. It's really high quality. It's entertaining. It lowers the stakes. I think it's a more comfortable entry point into this conversation than trying to do that lecture yourself.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Any helpful resource out there to help you ease into the topic, I would take full advantage of that.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

And just a reality for I think nearly every parent is this feels like a really uncomfortable topic. And so the more you get educated and get acclimated and start to feel comfortable with it yourself, that is going to pour out into any conversation you have with a teenager. Teens are going to pick up on any sense of uncomfortability or unease, which isn't a call to be perfect, but it's just a call to, I can do a lot of things to start educating myself now to really prepare for these conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

And part of that is what I said earlier is take the shock value out of it and just go in with the assumption that they've been exposed. Another thing I think you could ask them is what do you think porn is teaching you about sex? And what kind of sexual expectations are you building for yourself and others by watching this? And that would be another way to open the door for some healthy conversations about sexuality.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah. And what kind of sexual experiences do you want to have in the future? And what might help you get there or what might hinder you from getting there?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Another important thing is there they might see this conversation as you trying to control them. And I would try to reframe that in I'm not trying to control you, I'm trying to teach you about self-control. And what can you do to control this and the impact of it in your life versus me trying to control your behavior? This is something you have to learn, just like every other human on the face of the earth has to learn in relation to this topic.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

The way I phrase it in the book Outgrow Porn is befriending your sexuality instead of battling your sexuality. And that might be a helpful reframe. Like our goal is not to try to conquer every sexual thought and feeling. It's to try to figure out what they are trying to tell me and how can I work with them instead of against them.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

And I'm going to throw a shout out here for a couple books in the light of this idea that I've had this conversation with many parents who were quote unquote sexually pure going into marriage. And there can be this purity culture sense of that is the goal. And I use a phrase from Julie Slattery's book, uh Rethinking Sexuality, that talks about how we are all sexually broken. It doesn't matter if you waited till marriage, watched porn since you were 10, uh, never had sex, we are all sexually broken by what we experience in this broken world. And Drew's book, Outgrow Porn, Pick Up Unwanted by Jay Stringer, all of these books talk about this idea of befriending our arousal, getting to understand our sexuality deeper, instead of viewing it as almost this passfail course of goodness or not.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

That's so good. It's more like a skill that you learn. The purity culture narrative is basically taught that you're sexually pure at birth until things happen to you that make you impure or things you do that make you impure. In the sexual development model, we view it more similar to what Blake just said. We're all sexually broken, and we are all sexually developing. We are learning the knowledge, skills, and attitudes to become mature.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

And that's part of we're not trying to control you. We're trying to teach you self-control. That's a sexually mature developmental model. Like you're wanting them to develop into a person who has self-control, who understands their own behavior and why they do certain behaviors, not just be forced into certain behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Y'all are all over this, and I want to throw y'all a curveball for uh many parents out there.

When Teens Reject Your Values

SPEAKER_00 21:16

The situation is I found out my teen is either having sex or watching a lot of porn. We've had conversations about it, and they really have no interest in stopping. They they don't agree with our values, they don't agree with this idea of building their sense of self-control. What do we do in these moments?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

As I said before, first of all, appreciate the honesty, the vulnerability, the bravery that it takes to tell the truth and not just hide and lie. And then secondly, a phrase that really helps me is. Is remembering that you can't teach someone what they don't want to learn. And maybe the thing that they need to learn first before starting recovery is that I'm loved no matter what. Even if mom and dad disagree with me, even if I'm doing things that I know are wrong, but I don't want to stop, that does not disqualify me. And I still have value and worth, and I can still be accepted as I am.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

I love you for who you are, not your specific behaviors.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yes, yes. And again, I want y'all to say it like 20 times again, but that'll take up a lot of time. But it's true, so many teens come away from these conversations feeling like mom and dad's love go out the window unless my sexual choices and integrity line up with their exact definition of it. And that's a really hard place for a teen to be in this hypersexual world, no matter what the situation or circumstance is.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So when you encounter resistance or what seems like resistance, reframe it as an invitation to love and acceptance, regardless of behavior.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

And accept that you can't make them stop. There's always gonna be a way to access it. There's always gonna be a way around it. There's always gonna be a friend's house. There's gonna, you know, they're gonna find it if they want it. And you have to admit that. I know I can't stop you from accessing this. This has to be a choice that you make when you're ready to make it.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Doug, that is so good. And I think that's where a lot of parents find themselves is if I control this hard enough, I can stop it. And the reality is you can't, and that breaks down all conversational fabric of. I always tell parents of the goal here when we're in this situation is really building influence, connection, and trust together. I know you want your voice to be heard so bad, but a lot of it comes down to this love, this curiosity, this I want to get to know you, what's going on underneath there. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

And that has actually helped me heal and get more free from porn than anything else. Yes. It's paradoxical. The acceptance, the affirmation, the affection, even in the middle of all kinds of inappropriate behavior, is actually what helps the

Connection And Fun As The Foundation

SPEAKER_02 24:40

most.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Well, and the reality is because that's why we're going to porn and sexual actions is to try and fill up those buckets. And now that they're being filled up with loving connection from a parent who loves and cares about me, I am less inclined towards porn.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

And I also think, you know, interacting with your teen, involving them in things, doing things with them, spending time with them, getting them involved in other activities. Like don't just sit in your room with the door shut all the time, you know, with a computer or a phone. Like create activities with them, spend time with them, increase quality time and quality interaction with them.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

I was talking to some parents the other day, and the intervention we talked through wasn't how to have this great conversation. We talked through some of these things, but the first thing we talked about is what are y'all gonna do for fun together? How are y'all gonna get out and enjoy each other, do an activity that gets all the conversations out of it and just reminds each other that we love each other, we love spending time with each other. You are our son, daughter, and we love you. We are well pleased.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

And that is a great foundation to start with as you outgrow porn at any age.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

At any age. At any age.