Welcome To Start Younger

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Start Younger, the podcast about outgrowing porn, understanding our sexuality, and building healthy recovery practices.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Porn is reaching boys sooner than ever, which means helping and healing has to start sooner, too. Let's start younger.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Well, welcome everybody to the Start Younger podcast. I'm joined as always with my dear friends in life and in recovery, Drew Boa and Doug Carpenter. Hello, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Hello from cold Colorado, where I am literally wearing heated gloves while we record.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

And hello from sunny warm Florida, where it's 77 and not a cloud in the sky.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

I'm cold and rainy here in New York, but I most of you are probably listening. But if you're watching, you might be able to see Drew with his Iron Man heated gloves. And so uh there's probably some merch and stuff coming from that. Uh we're gonna peg Drew as Iron Man. Anti-Porn Man. Anti-Porn Man, that's right. Uh that's what everyone wants to hear about on here, right? Uh just kidding.

Why Moms Matter So Much

SPEAKER_00 1:18

For today, we are gonna be talking about what boys need from their moms. And we talked a little bit about what boys need from their dads. And uh today I'm excited to get to tackle that other piece of the puzzle because it in my work, oftentimes the vast majority of the parents I'm talking with is the moms who are saying, Hey, my my my teen, my son um is struggling with this. What what do I do? How can I help? And there's a lot of beautiful positives from that of what boys truly need from their moms that they were designed for, right? To give that nurturing kindness, that attuned presence of I am with you in these things and giving the space to grow and all of that. And we'll talk through some of the common pitfalls of uh where that can cause some chaos or some confusion for teens that are growing up in this addictive cycle and at times in a family system that may not have a dad involved or may not have a dad that's engaged in recovery in any sort of way. And so really excited for this conversation today to open up the conversation of what does this look like for teens and what does this look like for moms out there?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Yeah, I think this is such an important topic for a long time, for many, many, many years in my life. My mom was the most important person in my life to me, just with raising me and nurturing me and teaching me about life. My dad was very uninvolved with raising us, and my mom was the central focus in my life for many, many years. And uh I really appreciate the love and the nurturance that she provided me.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

So thank you so much to every mom who cares enough about this issue to be listening to this podcast and for the way that you are pouring into your kids. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

There's nothing like the love of a mother.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

I I I can tell you firsthand, I would say the vast majority of the clients, the teenagers I see in recovery sadly don't have a dad involved. He's either out of the picture or uh is just in a place in his recovery that he he's oftentimes more hurtful than helpful at this point. And it's really the moms that are kind of maintaining this gap of the stable, protective, attuned presence. And I always talk about the the impact that one attuned parent can have. Obviously, we would love to, but the impact that one attuned parent can have can change everything for a teenager in recovery. And I've seen that time and time again with a lot of moms who are just trying so hard and doing such a beautiful job. There's no such thing as a perfect job in parenting or momming, but seeing so many moms out there doing a beautiful job with their teenagers, which uh is such a sweet thing to see.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

I also want to validate and honor all the moms who feel like they have to be both parents. They have to be mom and dad. And I just want to validate that that's a heavy weight. That is a heavy burden for you to carry and to feel responsible for. And hopefully today we can give you some advice about how to bring some balance into that. But I first want to just honor you for trying to fulfill both of those roles and how difficult that much must be and how much of a weight it is.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Because there's a very real sense that what a mom

Starting Awkward Talks About Sex

SPEAKER_01 5:05

can give to her son is different than what a dad can give to his son. And I remember my mom's first attempt to help me grow in my understanding of sexuality. She bought the book Every Young Man's Battle and left it in my room. So she really wanted me to get support and resources. She knew that this is not really something that I wanted to hear about from her directly. She wanted to connect me with something. Unfortunately, every young man's battle is not a resource I would recommend. And there was also no relationship involved. There was no clarification involved. I think just even being willing to talk about it a little bit would have been great. And yet I think there was validity in her thinking, you know, Drew probably doesn't want to get into the details of this with me. And that's part of why this podcast exists. Not so that you can send it to your son without even talking to him about it, but in order to, as Doug said, bring more balance and maybe start some conversations that would feel weird if it was just a mother and son.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

You know, I I'm a firm believer that we have a difficult time truly understanding the opposite gender. I don't care how hard we try, I don't care how much in therapy I try hard to think like a female to either help men or to help validate and empathize with women. The two sexes we are genetically, biologically very different, and we cannot learn to think like the other one. So there are many ways that a mom may not truly ever understand boyhood or manhood. But it just like Drew said, it's still important to try to open those lines of communication in an appropriate way to where you can have difficult conversations. You can talk about sexuality, even if you don't fully understand the other person's perspective and experience, but just to open those lines of communication in a non-threatening and a loving, caring way to hold space for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Like I would have loved my parents to educate me about what masturbation is, would not have wanted my mom to follow up with me about how much I'm masturbating.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Never.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Sometimes the only wise, safe adult they have around to talk to is mom. And so sometimes that is kind of the conversation that comes out. And I think in a, you know, in theory, sure, there there might be a desire of, I don't want to talk to mom about some of these nitty-gritty details. And there's something beautiful about this idea of a lot of my teens have a have a deep struggle with mom even knowing about it, because oftentimes it's like I'm looking at females online and I really struggle with like, I don't want another female to see me in this space of shame I find myself in. And so when there is a conversation with mom about here's where I'm at with pornography or in recovery, and mom can be that same non-judgmental, safe, empathizing, validating space that that can change everything for our kids and teens out there of, oh wow, mom sees me, and I there's still a way forward for me. She still maintains her love and connection towards me. That that is so powerful.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Well, and I think moms need to understand too that in the last 28 years of doing therapy, definitely in the last 20, I haven't met

Porn Exposure Is Early And Common

SPEAKER_02 9:05

one teen who's come into my office who isn't engaging in pornography. Like, so it's really important for moms to not ignore this. And it's really important that they understand, and we talked about this on a prior episode, but you know, there's some research that shows that kids are being exposed to pornography all the way down to age eight. You know, and so you, moms, I just really want you to be consciously aware that this is out there and there's so much out there trying to get your kids' attention. Don't approach this in a shaming way, but in a curiosity way, in an educating way, and really be able to hold space around this, especially for sons.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

When I hear men tell me some of the stories about interactions they've had with their mothers about being discovered in pornography, sometimes the mom would have a very big emotional reaction. One even said, You're just like your dad. You're betraying me. And so there can be a feeling if the dad or the husband in the family has a history with porn and addiction, that discovering my son

Triggers And Treating Him Like Dad

SPEAKER_01 10:20

is doing the same thing can be very triggering. And even without realizing it, a mother can react to her son as if he's her husband. That's what we call transference.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

That's such a big one. I just did a talk on this exact idea on a betrayal healing conference of this idea of that there's a tendency for wives to treat their teenage sons at the same as their husband, right? Exactly what you're saying, Drew. And there's such a dramatic difference. And I say this really for the teenagers out there, right? Of when when you are, like Doug's saying, maybe eight years old to even 17, really, even until you know, 24, 25, your brain is not even fully developed. And part of the role as a son is that you were born into this role, right? You you you didn't choose it. You were simply placed there by God. And so there's a lot of differences between a a marriage, a covenantal choosing relationship of being fully adult and able to say, My commitment is to you to not betray you, to not hurt you, and I'm gonna do everything I can to maintain that. That is very different from a teenage boy or younger being curious in a hypersexual world and being roped into any form of pornography or hypersexual material that we would call any form, even uh curiously seeking it out as sexual abuse by someone else, right? We we are not meant to take this on.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah, I really want to encourage moms. I like I want we want to give you tools today of how to do this. You know, I I really want to encourage you to honor your kids, your your son and your daughters, when they approach these preteen years about their curiosity about the other sex. That is very normal.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

We're the same sex, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

And it's it's God given. Like they want to know am I like other boys? What are girls' bodies like? Like, honor this sense of curiosity that this is completely normal, that they're growing and maturing at a normal rate, just like everybody else. And everybody your age is starting to have these thoughts, they're starting to be curious, they're starting to have questions, and and open that dialogue. I was listening to a podcast from Marianne Brandon uh last week where she talks about sex tech and she was talking about teens who get pulled into pornography, and she talked about how how boys look at pornography for sexual gratification and masturbation, but girls look at pornography to answer curiosity questions about each sex's body and what boys truly desire. And so, you know, it's important that as a mom, you approach this with curiosity and love and compassion with both genders of your sexes of your children, but it has to be done in a uh a loving way, not in a purity culture way or in a shaming way, but in a way that honors the child's curiosity. And how can you help with that process?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

So here are some practical ways to be curious and compassionate. One would just be to say, tell me more, or that's interesting. I I wonder what's underneath that. That's more curiosity. Maybe compassion could look like blessing, not in the sense of endorsing the behavior, but blessing the desires that might be there, a desire for comfort, a desire for connection, a desire perhaps even for escape from the environment that they're in. Of course, it requires curiosity to discover those desires. Some other compassionate responses to discovering your teen using pornography might be thank you so much for telling me, or that makes sense, I'm right here with you and I'm not going anywhere. These are some of the statements that help because they normalize and validate the struggle that this teen is going through. I had a professor in the PSAP program, the pastoral sex addiction professional program, who said, When in doubt, normalize and validate the heck out of it. That's it. That's what we want from parents.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And I think you can find an easy way to bring these topics up, even though they're uncomfortable. You know, I think you can say to your team, hey, you're you're 10 years old. I've really noticed you're starting to grow. And I bet you're starting to have thoughts about the opposite sex or the same sex or whatever. And I bet you're starting to have some curiosity because you're just reaching that age. And I wonder what that curiosity has looked like for you. You know, can we talk about some of this? I want to help you grow and learn, and I want you to have accurate information. And this is just a normal part of development.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

And I want to take a moment here to validate for all the moms out there who have undergone some type of betrayal trauma of having a husband who has maybe walked away or some type of sexual acting out that has chaotically hurt their marriage relationship in a lot of ways, it makes sense that there's a lot of emotions that come up, right? A lot of natural trigger points of maybe anger, frustration, confusion when your teen gets found out in this. And so to take all these things together in that andness of, okay, I'm recognizing these feelings. I need to find my safe adult places to process these things so that I can give my son and daughter what they need of this attunement, this loving, nurturing presence, this curiosity of, hey, tell me more. In my head, I may think, tell me more might be painful for me, but I recognize that this is not my betraying husband, and this is what my son and daughter needs. And we we need wise adult support to help us get to those spaces when we've undergone a lot of pain in this area.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah, there's definitely a difference between your child's sense of curiosity and what what is or feels like your husband's betrayal. And sometimes those lines are gonna feel really close, but we have to work to keep those separated and treat them very differently.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

And there's

Enmeshment And Covert Incest Warning Signs

SPEAKER_01 17:15

another pitfall that is really difficult to face. It's really challenging to sort through, but it's one of the most common ones that many of us have experienced from our moms as boys and even as adult men. And that is when that nurture and connection from mom becomes enmeshed. We call that enmeshment. It's when a relationship gets tangled up in the book Silently Seduced. Ken Adams, the expert on enmeshment, says that when the parent-child relationship serves to meet the needs of the parent rather than the needs of the child, it is no longer loving in that dynamic. And that's really, really hard to realize because what seems like unconditional love and pouring myself out and being really close might actually be too close or meeting the parents' needs rather than the child's needs. And when that relationship becomes tangled up and there's not enough separation or boundaries, the result is enmeshment, which can feel suffocating, smothering. It can actually contribute to the feeling of needing to use porn because porn doesn't need anything from me. Porn is totally okay without me. And for a lot of boys growing up where mom needs me or I have to be there for her, porn is this sexual emotional outlet that demands absolutely nothing. And when we're done, it freely lets me go.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Absolutely. That was such a beautiful summary right there. And it's a hard truth. And the to validate once again, right? When when there's not a lot of emotional connection from spouse to spouse, that that energy often has to go somewhere. And it often goes towards the children of well, they can fill this bucket for me. They can be my emotional attunement. I've given so much to them, right? And you hear all the things that are true within this. Moms have given so much to their kids, right? And it just gets slightly twisted. And another part that's really hard about this is kids often don't feel the freedom to call this out or to challenge it in any way. And so they grow up with the silent giant weight on their shoulders that without our awareness to it. And that's why we bring it up, we want you to be aware. We want you to uh try to repair this if it's been happening, uh, so that the repair process can start sooner, the healing can start sooner. I want to give you the space to grow, to be free, to be nurtured. And when you mess it up or when you don't meet my needs, or when you're just being a kid, that's okay with me.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

And I think a lot of kids, teens, don't recognize enmeshment or that they felt so responsible for their parents' emotions until they're an adult and they're looking back and reflecting over their life. And because kids don't have the verbal and the cognitive skills to put that into words and and fully express their emotion, they don't realize that until later. So it's really the responsibility of the parent to make sure that boundaries are appropriate. I know one way that um I became really enmeshed with my mom, and and I contributed this too because I was a very shy kid. I didn't play good with other kids, I was very quiet and withdrawn. And so I clung to my mother severely. My dad was present in our home, but he just wasn't very active with us. And one thing that I would have liked for my mom to do was encourage my relationship with my dad. Instead, it was played, well, your dad's busy, he doesn't have time for you, he's not emotional, you know, which furthered the gap between me and my father. It I think it would have been helpful if if she could have also encouraged my relationship with him, like she encouraged my relationship with her. And so if you have a man in the home, even if he's not doing a stellar job of connecting with this kid, I think you can encourage Points of connection that that could bring balance into the system.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And you can also be aware of why you might be having a certain conversation with your son. One of the most common examples of enmeshment I hear and that I've experienced is when a mom is pouring out her soul to her son, maybe even complaining about dad to him. Yes. Kids sometimes feel like they're taking sides. And and a boy in that situation doesn't even realize it, but he is now becoming a replacement husband, emotionally speaking. And Ken Adams calls that covert incest. That is just a gut-wrenching concept to hear and to even think, wait, is that me? Could that be what I'm doing?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Well, and I think we have to realize that these young boys are growing up to be men. And oftentimes, even if the dad is not involved, the dad is still one of the main male role models. And so here this boy is trying to develop into a man, figure out what that looks like, and then the male in their life is being disparaged by another person that they really love. And that just creates so much confusion about how do I develop my masculine identity? How do I grow into a man and a good man because I'm being told the man in my life isn't good. You know, and just how confusing that can be.

Practical Help That Breaks Shame

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Especially when you get off into areas of sexuality and pornography, um, things that are very sensitive. This is can be very difficult, a difficult journey.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

So for any mom who's listening, what are some practical ways she can help her son outgrow porn?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

What did we say earlier? The the validation and the normalizing. If you start there, that is the foundational building block of all of this, of just understanding that that this is gonna be a part of my son and daughter's journey in some regard. And I can validate that, I can normalize that, and I can have space for that. And there's a lot of ways to do that, right? But simply start there. Of what's my next right step in that? To ask a question, to explore my own story, to just give them the space of, hey, we're we're gonna start talking about these things, and I'm excited about it. You can be a shame breaker.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

You know, there's lots of ways you can do this. There's one thing you don't want to do, and that's you don't want to promote shame around this topic. So just be careful in how you choose your words. Don't shame the child. Or if you're in a Christian home, don't, you know, use scripture in a way to make the kid feel bad about their sexuality or their sense of curiosity. So you don't want to breed shame because shame's gonna shut them down further. You know, I would approach it just like Blake said, by trying to open up these lines of of communication to where this can just be a normal topic. And you can also talk to the teen about if you're uncomfortable talking about this with me, who would you feel comfortable talking to? Can I help you arrange that? Uh, whether it be a youth pastor or a counselor, or who is somebody you feel like you could talk to and help let me help facilitate that?

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Absolutely.

What Teen Boys Can Do

SPEAKER_00 28:11

And along these lines, the the other question that comes to mind, right, is what's something that teens can do, especially teen boys who may be growing up in these different uh situations with mom. How can they broach some of these conversations and continue to start younger in their journey?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

When it comes to having a healing experience around mother wounds, mother absence, mother enmeshment, the things that we've been talking about, it can be so freeing to realize that my mom does not need me. She will be okay without me. If I share my real feelings with her and she reacts with intensity or with coldness, with disconnection or hostility or anger, that's not on me. That's on her. This is just the start of being able to differentiate me from her. That there's a difference here. And secondly, that as you grow up and as you gain more independence, it is not your job to take care of your mom emotionally. It is not your job to take care of your mom physically until you are at the point of being a grown adult and she is like a senior citizen. Aging. Like you're not there yet. Like there's a time and a place for a son to take care of his mother, and it's not when you're still a boy, and it's not even when you're entering adulthood. Agreed.

Books Resources And Closing

SPEAKER_01 30:10

I would recommend reading Silently Seduced by Ken Adams. It's a very difficult book, but it can reveal a lot. You should also check out this book called Outgrow Porn by Drew Boa, especially chapter eight, where we talk about enmeshment. And go down to the links in the show notes, and we have more resources for you, including Blake Brinkman.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I love it. Do all of those things. I've read Drew's book. I could not recommend it more for all of these topics and many more. And so that's a great place to start if you're like, I'm not ready for a conversation. A book, reading, educating is a safe way to start.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Yeah, it helps you see ways to address this that are not shaming.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah. For example, in the book, there's this exercise called palms up, palms down, where you make a list of all the blessings and gifts your parents have given you, and you receive them with your palms up. And then you also put your palms down to release any burdens or curses you may have received from your parents. For example, silence or shame about the topic of sex, condemnation and disconnection, maybe specific words that were said to you, or ways that your parents have actually made it harder for you to get free. I mean, you can release that. And so those are some things in the book.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Such a helpful conversation. And we really do hope that you guys keep listening, keep coming back whether you're a teen, mom, dad, uh, anybody, so that you can continue this journey of outgrowing porn and starting it younger because that that's our journey and our goal here. Our desire is to outgrow porn at any age.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

At any age.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

At any age.