Welcome And The Recovery Frame

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Start Younger, the podcast about outgrowing porn, understanding our sexuality, and building healthy recovery practices.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Porn is reaching boys sooner than ever, which means helping and healing has to start sooner, too. Let's start younger. Hello, and welcome to the third episode of Start Younger. Um, the podcast uh with me, Douglas Carpenter, and Drew Boa and Blake Brinkman. I really appreciate these guys, and I'm glad they're here with me today. And I'm really excited to start this journey and these discussions about how to deepen the relationship between fathers and sons. It's so important. And whether you're a dad out there or you're a teen right now, we're just glad that you're here. We're glad that you're taking this risk, that you're on this journey, that you're exploring our whole concept of how to outgrow porn at any age. But part of exploring that is the underlying reasons why maybe your porn use started and how it developed. And that's usually based in some kind of emotional feeling, deficit, lack of connection. There's a reason there. In husband material, we call this our origin story. Where's the origin of how this journey and this struggle started for me? And that it's really important that we begin to explore that. And oftentimes, our quest and our deep desire that we have with pornography is all about an underlying need for connection. We want to feel connected to someone, something. We want to be seen, we want to be known, we want to be understood.

The Question Every Boy Asks

SPEAKER_01 1:59

So the topic that we want to explore today is what did you need from your dad? What did you wish you would have heard from your dad? What did you need to hear? And let's explore this emotional foundation that every boy craves and longs for in connection with another man. And maybe you don't have a dad in your life, maybe you don't have a strong male figure. You know, and at some point we'll talk about the needs that we have from a mom. And what we get from females is equally as important as we get from a man. But I think finding a male voice in your life to be able to speak into your life is very important for every young man. And so our last episode, you heard all of our stories to some degree of depth. And all of those involved a deep desire for connection. You know, as especially in mine, my father was not an active part of my life, um, even though he was present. And there were lots of things I needed to hear from him that I never got. And so we just want to explore that today. What do boys need to hear from father? So I'm really gonna open this up now to Drew and Blake for them to throw out their thoughts and feelings and reactions because I know they're passionate about this as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

This

Fathers Shape Identity Through Words

SPEAKER_02 3:33

is something I wrote about in my book, Outgrow Porn. All of us have this deep longing and need to know who we are. And that is one of the primary roles a father can play in the lives of his children to tell you who you are. And it breaks my heart when I hear men say, My dad never said I love you. Or I never got a hug until I was 18 years old. I was going off to college. I'm like we grew up thinking, oh, that's just my life. That's just normal. That is a desert. That is emotional deprivation that we don't even know we're experiencing because it's it's neglect. When we don't experience the things we need, we don't realize it usually. And that's why I think neglect is the carbon monoxide of childhood trauma.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yes. I think of my own story, and my dad, as I mentioned on a prior podcast, was physically abused by his father and emotionally abused. And so he just distanced himself from us because he didn't want to hurt us and thought that was the way to go about it. But my dad, occasionally through my life, would buy me these gifts and he would show up with them, like a new 10-speed bike or a moped, or and I would be like, What is going on? Like, you don't even hardly speak to me. I don't even know you. I sat at the dinner table every night at 5:30 with you, and you barely speak. And you show up with these gifts for me. I was so confused. I was just so confused. And I would have traded any of those items for his words.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

If I could have just heard him express his love and nurturance toward me versus buying me a gift and being confused.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Or to put words with the gift.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

So the words that I find that that I longed to hear the most from my dad were not just I love you, but I'm proud of you. Yes. Not because of what you do, but because of who you are. A lot of my family members have been very successful in their careers. And my dad would often give me praise when it seemed like I was succeeding at something in school or in sports or just in life. It seemed like his approval was conditional. And so what I what I needed him to hear is even when you're not impressive, even when you make mistakes, even when you don't measure up to whatever standard, like I love you there. I'm proud of you right now, exactly as you are. And that is the voice that we see in the Bible. When Jesus gets baptized, there's a voice from heaven where he says, This is my beloved son, in him I am well pleased. And that that is the banner that has defined me, and I think defines each of us. When we become part of God's family, those words are for us. And and fathers get to represent that love of God with our words, with our faces, with our voices. And when you have that sense of identity, I don't I don't need to go looking for it somewhere else. Because so often porn is is meeting some kind of attachment need of the approval, the affirmation, the attention, the affection that I feel like I don't have or I'm not good enough for.

Conditional Approval And Shame

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Drew, as you were talking, you made memories flood my head of the only time I ever really heard our dad verbally praise us was over our grades. And my sister is a brainiac and was always a straight A student, and he he didn't give her much praise either. Like he he was really detached from all of us. But when my sister brought home her grade card, that would be the topic of conversation at the dinner table and how how how proud he was of her. And she was smarter than I was, or at least she applied herself more than I did at that age. I think I had a lot of emotional issues going on. But that so affected me that I wanted his praise of being being smart too. That my sister grew up and was successful and got a master's degree. And part of my drive to get a doctorate degree was to beat her. I'm gonna beat you, and I'm gonna show him. I'm gonna show him I'm just as smart as you. I'm gonna show you that I deserve affirmation just like she did for being so smart. And I'm gonna beat her and I'm gonna prove it to you. And that was all in a quest to get his affirmation.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

It's shame-based performance.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Very much so.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

And for some of us on the inside, that sounds like if only. If only I had this thing, or if only I could be like that, if only, if only. But the love of the father says even if. Yes, not if only, it's even if you never do that, or you never look like that, or you never get that, like even if you struggle with porn, even if you never get free, even if like you're not the son that I think you should be. I love you, and I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

That is so good. And I'm gonna jump on

Blessing That Says Even If

SPEAKER_00 10:09

here. This was the same thing I thought about immediately was the internal desires, right? We say a lot of when we go to porn, we're trying to meet legitimate desires in illegitimate ways, right? And the legitimate desires we're talking about here are blessing and affirmation. And I think there is value in affirming things, which I'm gonna talk about in a second, but the blessing is of the utmost importance, which is what you guys are talking about of even if, no matter what, no matter where I find you, my love and favor and face towards you will not change. I value you because you are my son and uh you are my daughter, you know, etc. Uh this is who you are, not because of what you did or what you accomplished. I simply bless you and love you uh fully. And then an affirmation, I the grades thing, Doug, right? I that is so, so common. And what I know to be true is many parents hear that and they're like, yeah, that's not how we talk about it. Uh, and I can't tell you how implicitly these ideas get planted in kids' heads of when we're around the dinner table and just gets talked about. And it's like, I was just celebrating great grades. And that can be true. And what kids start to learn very quickly is, well, I get this level of affirmation when I get a good grade, but if I don't, it's kind of silent. So I better keep achieving and reaching the highest pinnacle. And if I don't, some of these things start to evaporate or get desert-like. Maybe there's not uh negative consequences, like I don't get yelled at, I don't get scolded or grounded, but I just don't get that same level of attunement and connection. And so I always tell parents of affirm the process more than results. Yeah. You studied so hard. You you were you were in the gym, you were you were walking through that, you were you're practicing. Like that's amazing. Like you have such incredible character and determination about you. And honestly, I don't care that much that you got a 77 or that you missed this shot or that you played this note wrong. Like, I'm so proud of you. You know, I I don't have kids yet, but I have this dream of putting bad grades on the fridge or bad grades, what are those even called? But you know, I'm like, look at you go, like, you're in science class doing your thing. Look at that one-legged A. I don't base your value on performance. And so, and I want to let them drive their goals and desires. Like, what do you want out of class? What do you want out of your grades? Like, how can how can I help empower you in that? What do we want to work on together? And when we affirm results, it gets really janky in teens' heads very, very quickly, even without being explicitly spoken.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I know for myself, when my dad would go on and on about grades at the table, he also paid you $5 per A. So I would be sitting at the table, I would get $5 because I got one A, and my sister would get $25 because she got five A's. And that became that achievement-driven where I needed words of affirmation. I was into art and music and things that were less academically focused. And I longed for the verbal affirmation. You know, I

Entering Your Kid’s World

SPEAKER_01 13:48

I think of my own kids, my son and I are very close, but we're very different personality-wise. And when he was little, he loved monster trucks. And I took him to so many redneck monster jams. It wasn't even funny. And I would just praise him for loving it and that he and dad were gonna do this together. And I just got into whatever he was into, even though I was like, oh my word.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

So that's another huge need. Huge one, right? It's not just speaking words of blessing and affirmation that don't create comparison but create connection. Yes. And it's also getting into your son's world. Yes, yeah. Oh my goodness, yes. Instead of expecting him to kind of come into my world, getting into his world.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

And I often hear a lot of judgment around kids' worlds of well, they're into this thing, this video game or this social media, these movies, these music, and like kids these days just don't get it. Like who wants to have a conversation with that tone? Like, I I I don't want to talk to you about my interests, if that's how you're coming towards me about that. But if we move towards them and say, hey, tell me more. What what do you like about that music? What what gets you going about this movie or this video game or this group? Like, get curious. And your kids long to tell you about it. Uh, a story I'll share about this of engagement is so valuable. Get into your kids' world. I love to play video games. Um, I won't even tell you which one because some parents have very uh intense views about such games. But uh my dad started to weirdly later in my life get really curious about this video game I was playing. He was like, he he started by just sitting on the couch watching it for a while, and then he kind of asked, like, hey, can I can I play a couple rounds? And this game was like my life. I I I wanted to be on it 24-7. And yet I was very interested in the idea of my dad being interested. So I was like, Yeah, play a couple rounds. And my dad was so bad at it, he was awful, horrible. And yet, because he was engaging in my world, I I was over the moon. I I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't care that he was terrible or didn't know what he was doing. I thought it was amazing that he wanted to be in my space.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

That he wanted to be with you. Yes, fully. You know, I longed for that. I don't think either of my parents ever got curious or played a video game with me. And considering how many hours and hours I spent on that, it was like it was a missed opportunity. And so we're talking about blessing and affirmation as well as really quality time that's more about the child than the parent.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

I'm

Quantity Time Creates Trust

SPEAKER_00 16:59

reminded of uh capstone thing, an Adrian Hickman uh quote, but uh this idea that we often think in terms of quality time of I gotta manufacture these beautiful moments. And he talks about this idea of the more we build just quantity time that we are spending time together with no real agenda, but I'm focused and attuned on my kid, quality is gonna happen just over time by the more and more moments and reps and curiosity you get in that quality is gonna happen. And so to life is busy and we have to prioritize the things that are meaningful to us. And so placing the high priority of we spend a lot of quantity time together.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah. My dad worked 12-hour days for my whole life and lacked that quantity.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Well, and I even look back as an adult, and my kids are grown now, and and I feel like I was a good dad, but I still have a lot of periods of regret where I missed quality time and I worked too many hours helping other people get through the junk in their lives versus paying enough attention to my own children. And so I think it's so important to take advantage of those quality times when you have them. I do remember when my son was young, when he was in kindergarten and was really getting a hold of learning his numbers and all that. He constantly wanted to play Uno. And I just I tried to stop and just take advantage of those opportunities. I mean, as he was older, he got stuff involved in stuff that I really didn't like video games. Like I was just not good at that. Like, you know, I missed that opportunity, but sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

So all of this is building trust. Yes. Creating safety and connection, which is the right environment to be able to have conversations about sexuality and porn.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah.

Talking About Sex Without Shame

SPEAKER_00 19:03

I I think uh in that light, a need that comes to mind that we've kind of talked about in prior episodes, but just the need to be able to communicate openly about anything. Of we we say it a lot of there's nothing too weird, nothing too abnormal, nothing too far gone, nothing that we can't talk about that I don't have the space to hear you out on. And I may not have all the answers even, but I'm so glad you asked. I'm so glad you brought that up. Let's let's explore it together.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, and that was the one thing like when my son would come to me with a question, I never laughed. I never made fun of him for the question. I always answered his correct question straightforward in language that he could understand and just made it conversational. And therefore, from a little from a very young age, he just kept coming to me with questions. And it was no big deal because I had established this conversational tone with him that we could talk about anything.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I think the conversational tone is so key there. Cause what what I see with a lot of parents is the the fear and the shame and the anxiety kicks in immediately of oh my gosh, they just asked me about, and I didn't make sure they they they never have sex. And uh so I I answer very anxiously and very intensely, very quickly. And what kids learn implicitly through that is mom or dad seemed really scared by my question, and therefore I probably shouldn't ask anything like that again. And so our tone of safety is so key.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

So true. Well, I mean, I'll just be real honest here, and I I don't we may have to edit this out. I don't know. But my my son, the first time he had an erection at like five, he called me in the room and he's like, What is wrong with this? And I just had to sit down and have a conversation about boys and men and our bodies and the penis and what happens and what that means. And I just so normalized it.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

That's right. That that's what kids need. Yeah. And you also probably had what's called the power of first mention. So the first time we hear a word or a concept has a bigger influence on how we view that thing. Yes. If you can be the one who introduces the concept of an erection, that is going to have a bigger impact than if a kid hears it from a friend.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Well, and I celebrated that with him. I'm like, dad's does that too. Yeah. Like, hey. That's not weird.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

That's not weird at all. And there's this myth that we need to have a single sex talk where we get through all of the different words and concepts. That is so not true.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

No, no, no, no. Doesn't work at all. It's an onion. It's layer upon layer. The Bible says precept upon precept, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah. I want to read a quote from Tina Schirmer Sellers who says children and adolescents do not need one 100-minute awkward and painful sexual health conversation. They need 101-minute conversations. Yes. They need sexual and relational education delivered in many, many sound bites weekly across their entire childhood and teenage years. Just think about how your life might be different with that kind of support.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Oh, I think of that with my son so much. Like the first time he had an erection. And then another time, probably two years later, he came to me and he goes, Dad, what's a lesbian? Like he'd heard this term. And then when he was 11, he came to me and said, What's a condom? Because he had heard we went to see the Broadway show, like hairspray or something, and they had mentioned that word. And so then he was like, What is that? Like, so it was just these little questions and little one-minute conversations.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And to remember this idea, exactly what you're saying, Drew, of if I don't talk about it, someone else will be willing.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

The world is always talking about this stuff. The world is unashamed and unafraid to talk about anything and the way they see it. And so we have the opportunity to engage. I think of the the bravery of a teen I was working with who he basically described to me an ejaculation experience and was basically like, What is this? I don't, I don't understand. And it was such a beautiful moment to be like, hey, that's not abnormal. That's not weird. That makes sense. Here, here's some of the God's design biology behind that, and why and how that happens. And I'm thankful you shared that and is celebrating that, like you said, Doug, of like, what honesty, what courage. Like, good for you, pal. And we can that changes the trajectory so much.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I mean, my son, I'm sure he'll kill me when he hears these podcasts. But the first time he had a wet dream, he came to me and I was outside reading a book and he sat down and he goes, Dad, do boys have periods? And I go. It's a great question. We don't. But I'm curious what happened for you that made you come and ask Dad that question.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

And that opened the door for him to tell me that he'd actually had a wet dream. And then we got to discuss that. Amazing. That's so good. But it was all those one-minute conversations, the 51-minute conversations we had before he had a wet dream that allowed him to come and ask me that.

Turning Awkward Talks Into Games

SPEAKER_02 24:50

And with my kids, the entire concept of a parent giving the sex talk has been reversed because I have this card deck by Dear Young Married Couple called Having the Talks. Multiple talks, not just one. Yes. And it's got 107 conversation starters where I will ask my kids, what is a penis? What is a vagina? And then they get to tell me how much they already know. So it's no longer just like a lecture. And in fact, we have this card game at the dinner table, and sometimes the kids will say, Hey, can we do the talks? Like they are initiating.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

They want to do it because it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

It is. Because there's no shame. Joy. Yeah. It's not scary. It's not anxiety driving. This is open and free conversation we get to have with mom and dad. And they get to share what they've already picked up.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

And we start with that.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yes. And they won't be scolded or punished or made to feel other than or weird for that. It's like, I'm so curious. Tell me what what what have you heard? And let's let's start talking about this together.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, just like I asked my son, well, what what happened? What what made you ask me that? Like, let's talk about that.

Emotional Safety And Feeling Skills

SPEAKER_00 26:12

If I may, another thing that comes to mind in this context of something we desperately need from dads is the the safe space emotionally. I I think even more so for boys and men and dads. It still happens with girls and moms, but it's with men, there's this cultural belief that emotions shouldn't be felt or experienced. And number one, the Bible debunks it so fully of Jesus' experience of emotions and the full range of emotions just on display there. But regardless, there's a cultural tone to that, that you can't do that. And I remember having huge emotions, big, really confusing, and didn't know how to regulate emotions as a kid. I got disappointed and cried easily and would get very upset. And uh, I'll never forget my dad's disgruntled, disappointed face when he would say, Why are you so sensitive? And I immediately felt that sense of there's something wrong with me. What I I I can't make sense of this any other way. And it took so many, so many years to understand the truth that my emotions are meaningful and valid and acceptable. And doesn't mean I need to let them drive the entire ship, but they they it's a great GPS system to what's going on within me. And when we can have a safety about that of, hey, tell me more about these emotions. Like, let's let's follow that thread and see where it leads us. Like, oh, that can change everything in our households.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

If I can just jump in and do a quick teaching moment, like I really tried to be conscious when my kids were small. If they started crying or if they were hurt or something, I would pick them up, I would sit in the recliner, I would put them in my lap, and I would say, Dad's just gonna hold you until you're done crying. And when you're done crying, we'll talk about this. And I just let them have their moment, no matter how big it was. I remember one time my daughter was crying about something, and we both love Cheetos. And so she came to me, she was crying, she was upset, and I know this is could cause an eating disorder. I know all these, yeah. But I said, go get the Cheetos. And we sat in the chair and she cried and we just ate Cheetos until she was ready to talk. That's great. And it's just taking that time to be present with them, give them permission to experience their emotion, and then you can talk about it. You don't have to shame them, you don't have to move them away from those emotions. You just be present with them.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

In an emotionally safe relationship, you have total permission to feel whatever you're feeling. Yes. There are no negative emotions.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

No, should not feel bad.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Right. Yeah. And Blake actually gave me an idea about how to develop emotional connection and literacy with my kids. It's based on the feeling wheel. So a lot of you probably would be familiar with the feeling wheel. If you're not, go do a little Google image search. And at our husband material healing weekends, we have a feeling wheel pillow that we pass around the room so that people can check in with how they're feeling. And maybe part of me is feeling anxious, part of me is feeling excited, um, part of me is feeling ashamed. Well, Blake had the idea of taking each feeling, cutting them into little strips, putting them in a jar or a bowl, and then turning it into a game. So another game we play at the dinner table is the feelings game where each person takes a turn picking up one of those strips of paper that has a feeling word on it and saying about a time when I felt this feeling. When have I felt heartbroken? One of my sons really likes sharing about that. Um, our neighbor's dog died, and he's like, I felt heartbroken.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Like good for him.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

This is great for kids. This is great for teens, this is great for adults. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Mom and dad have to go first.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yes. Yep. All that's so good for cognitive development and being able to interact and read other people and have empathy and compassion.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

And it's extremely important for sexual recovery because if we don't name our emotions and process them, they will become sexualized. And we will try to escape from them or avoid them through a distraction like porn. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

And we talk about this a lot on here this idea that it's never too late to start, right? And so I've literally practiced this with parents and families with their teenagers. And the first couple of times, there can be a resistance of we've never done this before. This is awkward and weird. I don't want to play this silly, stupid game. And I can't tell you how many times it takes, maybe two, three weeks, maybe a little bit longer. But normally the teens start running around grabbing the cup and saying, Who's ready to play the feeling game? Like, let's let's do two tonight. What what do y'all think? Let's do two. And that they love emotional safety, they just don't know it yet. And so we as parents and leaders need to be the ones who lead and open up that safety for them.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

This is so good. So we've talked about blessing and affirmation. We've talked about entering your world, and we've talked about the need for open communication about anything, as well as emotional safety. Seems like a pretty good recipe for a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Gosh, the things that would change.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah.

Practical Next Steps And Refathering

SPEAKER_02 32:21

So like beyond creating the feelings game, which is a great idea, what would you recommend to parents and leaders on what they can do to help their kids?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

We a hundred percent will do a podcast about this question, but for starters, I do think the feeling game is probably the most accessible and easiest to start. Um, and so just start there. Cut up a feeling wheel, put them all in a cup, pull one out and say, when's the time I felt this? Especially recently. I I try to say within today or the past week. But outside of that, just starting to get attuned to what are my feelings or resistances to these things? How do I feel about emotions? How do I feel about openly communicating about anything? Because we say a lot, you can only take someone as far as you've gone yourself, right? And so our journey and story and engagement as parents is going to empower and clear the way for our kids to engage in a similar way. And so that doesn't have to happen tomorrow, but just start to grow those awareness muscles of what's going on within me when I think about these things.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

And in addition to the feelings game, you can get the having the talks card game. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Doug, what about for a young person who's hearing about what they need and maybe is realizing that they're not getting those things?

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, I I would encourage you to recognize that that's a very normal part of you, to not ostracize that part of you, but to walk toward it, recognize this is what I need, and begin to think about where in my life could I get this need met? Who could I reach out to? Who can I connect to? But don't be afraid of that. Don't wall that part of you off, don't sequester it away. We need to walk into our feelings with compassion and curiosity and recognize that that they're normal. No emotion is good or bad. It's what we do with our emotion that we can be judged about. No court of law is going to judge you for having a feeling. You know, you're not bad because you have a feeling. And just allow yourself to be curious about that. And where can I get this emotional connection for this need met in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_02 34:57

And if you have been underfothered, good news. You can be re-fathered by God in community with safe men, with brothers, and we'll get into this in future episodes. You can also reparent yourself. And we are actually going to host a father-son healing weekend where fathers or father figures and teen boys or young men can come and experience that re-fathering, reparenting process, redemption, healing, connection, being able to say things that you've never said, being able to work through things that you've never processed. It's going to be a powerful time. It's going to be in Utah. And if you are interested in attending this with your father or a father figure in your life, or with your son or somebody that you're mentoring, then you can go down to the show notes in the description where you can apply to be part of it. And I'm really looking forward to that because we are here to outgrow porn at any age. At any age, at any age.