Why Starting Younger Matters

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Welcome to Start Younger, the podcast about outgrowing porn, understanding our sexuality, and building healthy recovery practices.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Porn is reaching boys sooner than ever, which means helping and healing has to start sooner too. Let's start younger.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Hello, all you wonderful, beautiful people out there. I am here with my great pals Drew and Doug on the Start Younger podcast, where we get to start this journey of outgrowing porn, healing, transforming, building recovery earlier, younger, as is needed. And so if you listen to the first episode, you know we have this deep value of leaders going first, that we need to create the safe, open, vulnerable space to share our stories, to talk about the full, honest truth of what is going on within us, what we're feeling, uh, what we're thinking, uh especially around our struggle and our shame. And so, welcome to the episode where we talk about our stories. And so we we may be jumping around, asking some questions, kind of showing how safe people engage stories altogether and just the honesty that's required for that. And so I trust these men a lot. And so I'm excited to hear their stories again and get to just engage it together.

Drew On Shame And Arousal Patterns

SPEAKER_04 1:30

And so we'll lead off with Drew here. Of Drew, uh, we would be honored to hear a little bit about your story.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Thanks, Blake. I was a boy who loved Jesus and hated porn, but I couldn't stop using it. My parents never taught me anything about sex and sexuality except don't have sex before you're married. Later on, I found out they were so ashamed of their sexual stories that they thought they were protecting me by never even bringing it up. I so wish that my dad had been vulnerable with me about his story. It would have helped me feel normal, it would have helped me feel human. I carried so much shame. My sexual thoughts and feelings were like this forbidden magical place in my head that I would go. And it all started for me when my family moved from Toronto to Texas when I was 13 years old. Went from a place where I had friends, where I felt like I belonged, where I was thriving in many ways, to a place where I felt like an alien. Like I was alone. I had no real friends, and I started spending a lot of time up in my bedroom on my computer, playing video games and masturbating to the pictures of girls at my school or girls at my former school in Toronto. And at that time, those girls had braces on their teeth. And that focus of my first orgasms and females with braces became the thing that I searched for pornographically. That was the fetish, the fixation, the secret that I felt so weird about. I felt ashamed. I didn't have the language, but I really felt self-hatred as I got older and these sexual thoughts and feelings stayed the same. I didn't know why and what, like, what is going on? But it it had this magnetic pull on me. It it had this power over me. And I feel like in that time of life, which was a hell for me in many ways, and middle school can be like hell. I had two saviors who were competing for my soul. Jesus and porn. And I tried to keep track of how many times I would give into porn or not. And the more I did that, the more I went back to porn. It was this loop of of shame and despair and then desperate performance. And that is where my addiction started. Nothing changed until at 18 years old when I entered college, my first night in the dorm room. Some guys told me about this group they were starting called Lust Free Living. LFL. And I have to give credit to LFL for getting me started on this journey. They got me to start younger.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

And if I didn't start at 18 years old, I don't know where I would be right now. The fact that this group reached me at that age was life-changing. Because even though that curriculum was cringy, like they would ask people to share their lustimony.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

I love that word, lustimony.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

It was what I needed.

unknown 6:19

You know?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

So it was what I needed to start to feel safe to open up and to have guys who I could talk to about this. And then they were also very strong on your identity in Christ. And so that was what I needed to hear in my shame as well. But even then, for the next few years, I was fighting a battle against myself. And I felt like I had a better chance at that battle with Jesus and with these other guys with me. But my sexual fantasies still felt magical and confusing at the same time. Yeah. So that's what eventually led me to want to go deeper. After even a year of freedom from porn and masturbation, I relapsed more frequently than I ever had a little over 10 years ago. Doing this in community with brothers and with the Lord Jesus on my side is huge. And there was more that I needed to discover. And that's what eventually took me deeper. Read as many books as I could, took courses, traveled across the country, and eventually realized that actually there is a reason why particular types of porn appeal to different people.

unknown 8:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah. And the light bulb went off for me that maybe this fixation on braces wasn't random. But it was rooted in my story. And that's when I felt self-compassion for the first time. Wow. And I realized, like you said in the last episode, Blake, my story makes sense. Yes. Yes. And what I went through at 13 set me up to sexually struggle. In addition to so many other things in my story, but this was huge because for the first time I didn't hate that part of me. Once I started to see where it was coming from. And eventually this approach of deeper healing and looking at what's underneath these things has given me over 10 years of freedom from porn. And it never entered my marriage because it it started younger.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

That's wonderful. So I hope that others will be able to start at age 18 or younger so that you don't have to wait until you're you're trying to pick up the pieces of a broken marriage, but maybe you can set a really good foundation for marriage or for singleness and sexual health with resources that would be way more robust than what we had back then. I wish this podcast was around when I was getting started.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Absolutely. Amen. Although in that strict Christian home I was raised in, I probably wouldn't have been allowed to listen to it.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

That's beautiful. Drew, I'm I'm so honored to just hear your story again. And something I that just

Fully Known Without Being Rejected

SPEAKER_04 10:00

stuck with me was when you're talking about some of your sexual fantasies and this idea that they they felt magical and confusing. And I think that's a a struggle we all go through, especially in our younger years, of I don't know why, but there is something that feels magical, euphoric, extremely desirous to me. And I'm extremely confused by that. And I don't know what to do. And just honor that honesty in that and appreciate that, man. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

You're welcome. And there was a part of me while I was sharing that that thought, am I being too honest at the start of this? Like, am I gonna turn people away? Are they gonna think I'm completely strange and odd? And why are you talking about braces? And why are you like well?

SPEAKER_04 10:55

And I think this is a great moment of something I talk with teens about a lot is we can't control the reactions or responses of others, and that doesn't make it true. Right. And so there may be people out there that say, Oh my gosh, Drew was talking about braces and like other stuff, and it was magical. Like, this is weird. I don't like that. And you have brothers beside you to say that's not the truth. The truth you shared was incredibly valuable and meaningful. And uh, I know I've been there and many, many teens have been there. And so I just thank you again for going first and opening up the space for that level of truth and honesty and freedom to exist.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

From a clinical standpoint, I often tell people, well, the devil is in the details. And I think the whole braces thing was a detail within your story that has formed and been a significant part of your sexual development and sexual struggles throughout the years. And so sometimes people are resistant to truly tell their story or the intricate details of their story, but it's often in those details that we find the hook, what grabbed us and drug us into the problem. And so being open and willing to share your story in the details is so important in the process of figuring out how to grow out of this problem.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

A hundred percent. And the this idea, right, that fully known, fully loved, right? We we can only be as fully loved as we are fully honest. And sometimes we can get comfortable with this idea of, sure, I can tell my people around me that I struggle with pornography, but I can't tell them that I struggle with braces or a certain element or something that I deem as weird or abnormal. And so there always be that small gap of, but if they really knew this about me, would they reject me? Would they embarrass me? Would they abandon me? And when you go, when you find your safe people, it's probably something we'll talk about in the future, but when you find your safe people and you can share the hundred percent honesty, and they don't walk away, they don't laugh, they don't turn their face away from you, they they don't show disappointment. That is so healing to our story of I I heard all of that, and my love and my face for you does not change.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Right. Oh my goodness. That was one of the most healing moments of my life when I shared that detail for the first time in a group. Yes. And in that moment, I was so afraid of rejection, of condemnation, of being seen as other or weird. It became so clear that my deepest, darkest secrets don't disqualify me from being loved. Amen. In fact, they can open up a space for me to feel loved more than ever because I'm more known than ever. Yes. And I had no idea this would happen, but my closest friendships developed in those spaces.

SPEAKER_04 14:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

I mean, I started this to try to get free from porn and masturbation, but I didn't realize like this is going to lead me into a brotherhood that I didn't even think was possible.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

It's funny that you mentioned that because when I think back on my life, my three closest friends, I think all started out with maybe not started, but the jump of the deep intimacy we have as friends was something around a sexually vulnerable, shameful conversation I had and them dispelling that shame for me.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

And isn't that what Jesus does? He is the ultimate shame breaker. The best. And whenever we see him encounter a sexually broken person in the Gospels, how does he respond? He comes closer with compassion.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

He doesn't turn away. Think about the first person he really revealed himself to was the woman at the well. She had sexual sin in her life. And he chose her to reveal that he was the Christ. He will meet you where you are.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

At any age.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

She said, Come and meet a man who knew everything I ever did. Yes. And loved me in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

And loved me. She starts telling her story with deeper honesty and compassion with herself immediately after interacting with Jesus. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Trying to convince him why he shouldn't love her. But he does, regardless. And that's what I'm receiving from you guys right now. The love of Jesus through your presence and kindness for my story. I know some listeners may not fully relate to my specific sexual arousal template, yet I invite you to consider what is that thing for you? The sexual specifics, the particulars of porn for you that might feel especially difficult to share. Notice that because there's no such thing as normal porn. There are only specific sexual scenarios with particular people, and they're telling a story. So thank you for listening to mine. Next

Blake On Anxiety And Numbing Out

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up is Blake Brinkman.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

Come on. I'm reminded, Drew, as you said that last point, my counselor uh always used to put it like this of there there's a reason for what we skip, and there's a reason for what we zero in on and slow down. And there's always story, desire, emotions underneath. And so to notice that is powerful. And I appreciate you opening up that opportunity for us. And uh I will try to follow it here. And so, man, my story begins probably around eight to ten, somewhere in there, growing up in a home that felt very up and down. Sometimes I felt extremely loved and cared for. And sometimes I felt the exact opposite of just a fear and anxiety and eggshellness of what is it gonna be like am I when I get home? Am I gonna be humiliated or terrorized in some kind of way? So I just I grew up as kind of an anxious kid. And what I really started to look for was someone that would approve of me, someone that would choose me to make me feel safe and valuable. And I grew up in a lot of cultural Christianity, as in we go to church because we should. And I personally preferred to watch football on Sundays, so I was like, this is lame, I don't want to go here. And so just lived my life in this way for many years. But I had all these big questions as a kid of like what happens when we die, and what what what is this all about, and just could never figure it out. And then one day my my friend invited me to youth group, and you know, there were there were pretty girls there, we played fun games, so I was like, sure, why not? This sounds like fun, and that was where I really started to hear the gospel for the first time, or at least hear it and understand it. And it started to answer all of my questions that I was in need of a savior, and that Jesus was that savior who died and rose again and wanted a relationship with me. And I was so excited. I got plugged into youth group and Bible study and serving and all of these things. I was on fire for the Lord. And there were a lot of things that were still extremely hard for me, especially at home, of a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear, a lot, a lot of wondering, am I loved? Am I am I worthy of being chosen and loved? And when we don't feel that from our parents at times, it's it's really hard to believe in that truth that I am lovable. If my closest people to me can't seem to love me, then what does that say about me? And I started to buy that core belief, that shame statement, that how I made sense of my story was, well, I must just not be lovable. That that makes sense to me. That that seems to answer this equation. And so then I was on a basketball team school bus, and uh around 15, 16 years old, a phone started getting passed around. And mind you, my my parents never talked about sex at all. And so the only education I had was from friends in pop culture who mostly described sex as this end-all, be-all, the the pinnacle of life existence in some way, shape, or form. And so when this phone gets passed around on the bus and I see hardcore pornography for the first time, my brain is in a slew of emotions and feelings. I'm I'm confused, I'm I'm uh it's exciting, right? The images, I'm probably a little bit aroused at that moment. I'm maybe a little ashamed and embarrassed, and I can't figure out how to place all these together, especially with the curiosity I had of what was that that I saw? And I'm curious to look into it some more. And without any safe people to talk about it with, that's what I did. I got curious and I looked further into these things. And what I began to learn very quickly is that when I use porn, masturbation, I start to not feel this deep sense of dread or anxiety or hopelessness within me. It seems to numb and dull these feelings I've been trying to run from for many, many years at this point. And so the addiction started to set in very quickly of. I was using it multiple times a day. And some people have a lot of shame about this. So I want to share this of using it to the point of developing some scars and some things like that for myself. And all of this in the context of I'm still a teen that loves Jesus and I'm just in the beginning of what does this journey look like to follow Jesus and to honor him? And so I'm drawn to this, and I hate that I'm drawn to it. And I don't know why. And I can't seem to stop. And so, like Drew was talking about, I started to develop all this safe held hatred of myself. And it the feelings got so intense, so bad, that I finally had to tell someone about it. And I reached out to my small group leaders, and they were kind, they were gracious, they were understanding. And their advice was pretty much, well, just keep reading your Bible and praying more. And that should solve it. And as a as a doer, as a kid, I was like, okay, I can handle that. Let me read, let me pray, I'm gonna, I'm gonna knock this thing out. And when that didn't work for me, the the shame tripled, quadrupled, whatever you want to call it. I felt like the worst person in the world. I'm I must be the worst Christian around. If if all these other Christians just read their Bible and pray and can rid themselves of this struggle, it it doubled down on that core belief, that shame I had, that there must just be something wrong with me. I'm unlovable, I'm unchoozable, um, and I'm sure God's gonna abandon me just like all the other close people in my life. And man, I lived in that shame and going weeks or months trying to stay clean, to relapse, to struggle for years and years. And it wasn't until I met some people that allowed me to really share my story with deep honesty and met me with such grace and compassion. And like we've been talking about, we're able to help me put the pieces together that my story makes sense. What I long to look at and look for comes from this deep desire to be chosen, to be accepted, to be safe. It's not something inherently bad or wrong about me. And the the love they showed me allowed me to start to build this new foundation. And building that new foundation took years and years. I didn't snap my fingers and get quote unquote clean, but I began this process of growth, of learning more and more about the truth of who I am in Christ, even in the midst of my struggle. And having brothers and community around me that could celebrate that and affirm that and say, this is true about you. And we love you, and we're here with you every step of the way. And that began to began to change everything for me. And down the line, I know Drew talked about this. I I did bring this into my marriage, even in ways, and yet my my story of growth continued, of vulnerably, authentically showing up in my marriage, bringing that to my community in marriage, of what does this look like to continue growing in this process of I'm always growing more and more into who I am in Christ. That that doesn't end when we quote unquote get sober. And so yeah, I think that's that's the gist of it for me. Probably I I mean, we could all talk about our stories for hours and hours, right? But we'll we'll start there.

Reframing The Story With Compassion

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Thank you, Blake. Thank you for sharing that so vulnerably.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

It always feels a little nerve-wracking to share your story, no matter how many times you share it. Of um, I think there can always be this piece of risk or vulnerability of how are people gonna respond to this? And yet I've shared it enough that, like we were talking about, I have a great understanding of how y'all are gonna respond to my story. And even if y'all didn't, I know the truth and fullness of who I am in Christ. And so I I can respond to that in my wise man truth from there.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

As you were sharing, I heard how deeply you cared about getting free and how hard you were trying, and how you did everything you were told to do.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Oh, wow. Being the best Christian you can possibly be. Doing all the right things, but the struggle still existed.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

Guys, don't don't make me tear up right now. And honestly, I'm not tearing up, I'm smiling because for so long I I despised that little boy. I I had so much self-hatred of how could you be the guy that got hooked on pornography and all this acting out sexually, even relationally. Like, what's wrong with you? And the longer I've engaged my story with Safe Community, I've been more able to say things like y'all just said of, gosh, that little boy tried so hard. He was so determined, he was resilient, he went through just some of the most difficult things, and yet was compassionate, was uh a good friend, uh wanted truth and freedom badly, even when he didn't know exactly how to get there. And just so many things I can celebrate about that little boy now that I used to not be able to.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Thank you guys for that. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

I also heard the intensity of your anxiety and pain. Deeply. When we're teens and we experience emotional pain, we don't have words for it, we just think it's normal. You know, this is just life. Um every day going home to this environment. You were deeply unsettled. I might be reading into this, but I kind of I kind of felt like the the detail of having scars was really significant.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

I was so desperate for some sense of comfort and safety that I was willing to almost override this bodily pain to try and get it.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

And man, when I look back at that, I my heart just breaks for myself and my little boy of how much pain he must have been undergoing internally that that was a trade-off he was willing to take. Our internal drive for connection is so strong. I'm honored by those things you pointed out, Drew and Doug. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Thank you so much for being vulnerable and willing to share

Doug On Abuse And Early Exposure

SPEAKER_00 29:18

that. You know, I think all of our stories are complicated. They have layers and layers and layers that add to them that make each person's story complicated for them. I know within my own story, I feel a sense of complication because I don't I don't feel like I can share my my developmental years and my exposure to porn without sharing my sexual abuse because they're so intertwined. My sexual development journey started before I was five. There was a girl in the neighborhood that was about four years older than me, and she was absolutely enthralled with my penis. Every time I was around her, every time I was with her, she wanted me to take my pants off, she wanted to touch me, she wanted to explore me. I was probably four and five years old. I don't even remember having an understanding of why she wants to do this. Why is she so enthralled with this? And I don't think at that age I either had the I didn't have the understanding to say no either. I was just like, oh okay. And that went on for several years. Looking back, I have so much empathy for her because she was clearly being sexually abused herself. She had knowledge about the adult male body that an eight-year-old, nine-year-old girl should never have knowledge of, of what orgasm was or what ejaculation was. And she would try to tell me these things, and I was so clueless, I did not understand what she was talking about at all. When I was probably about eight or nine, as I mentioned in a prior cut podcast, my neighborhood friend and I found his dad's dash in the basement. We went through a period of time where we would look at those pornographic magazines. But I would say by then my curiosity was already piqued about sexual things because of the sexual exploration and curiosity that this young girl had with me and my body. And then when I was about 11, I did not have many male friends growing up. My my dad had been physically abused by his father. And so he just wanted to be left alone as a kid. And so when he had kids, he thought the best way to raise us was to just leave us alone and let us be kids. So he literally ignored us. I mean, just like we weren't even there. Like he provided super well for us, but he there was no interaction, no connection, no father-son time, no throwing the ball around, like nothing. And I was starved for connection. And then when I was 11 years old, I became friends with this other boy who wanted to connect with me. He wanted a friend, and I was so open and willing to connect with him. What I didn't realize is that when I went to his house and they were prominent people in the community. This wasn't like a bad situation. You know, I walked in their home and there was literally pornography everywhere. It was in the bathroom, it was on the coffee table, it was on the poker table downstairs. It was just like at my house, my mom had better home and gardens laying around everywhere. Well, at this house, they had Pinhouse and Playboy and whatever else was there. Everywhere. And it wasn't hidden in any way. You know, and I look back at that now and feel like me and my friend were being abused by all the exposure to that kind of material at such a young age when we didn't understand. I believe that that boy had more knowledge about sex than I had because of how much he was being exposed to. And then he started to want to do sexual things to me that I did not understand, wasn't prepared for. I feel like the situation was sexually abusive, but in some ways I feel like we were both being abused by the exposure. Then I had some inappropriate situations happen with my grandfather when I was 10. And then when I was 13, an older teenage girl took advantage of me. So I remember talking to my wife one time, and I just have this sense that when I was growing up, everybody wanted to touch my penis, and I just didn't understand why. Like, why does everybody I encounter want to get in my pants? Um, and that was so confusing for me. And it just, you know, I tell people that it feels like sexuality walked into my life at five years old and flipped on a light switch that never got turned off again. Like it was just so bright and filled up the room that my poor little mind was just so curious about this. And I grew up in a strict conservative Christian home where these kind of things were not discussed. I remember one time with this girl who was exploring with me. I don't think she even knew she was sexually abusing me. She wasn't even old enough to have a grasp of that. But we got exposed to cigarettes. And I went, I remember I felt so guilty. I went home and told my mom that I had tried a cigarette, and my mom didn't believe me. She laughed. Because we were such a good Christian family. There was no way I could do something like that. So that showed me right there. I could never tell you what was really going on in my life because if you laughed at me trying to tell you that I was exposed to a cigarette, what were you gonna do when I told you that people keep taking my pants off? Yeah. I just I felt I had nowhere to go with this. And I was so naive, too, that I just didn't even understand what was happening. And then when I was 11, um, being exposed to all this pornography and then sexual acts starting to be performed on me, I had my first orgasm with this person, and it terrified me. Literally terrified me because I didn't have any context to put this in. You know, later I've I figured out what happened to me and what that was, and that it was actually, you know, something that could be pleasurable once the being terri terrified went away. And then porn became an avenue to also fulfill that desire and to make that connection. And uh, you know, one thing that I'll talk about on this podcast is the research shows that anytime a teen, a youth starts any addictive behavior before the age of 14, they're more than likely going to have a lifelong struggle with it. And I think you can see, you know, people can see in all of our stories that when you start something this young, it it does get a hold of you. Like I said, that light switch went on and it never went off because I just was full of so much curiosity. You know, that throughout my teen years, my college years especially, I was very intrigued by pornography and consumed a lot of it. But like I said, my story with pornography is so linked to the four people who were sexually inappropriate with me throughout my life that it's hard to decipher out, you know, which struggles are connected to with because they're intertwined. I think that's true for a lot of youth. You know, the statistics tell us that one in three girls and one in six boys had been inappropriately touched in a way they didn't desire before the age of 18. And I was definitely one of those kids that were vulnerable and a victim of that. And so, you know, I I feel like I have to tell both parts of that my life story for this to make sense and for me able to be able to enter into recovery and work through these. And that's why I was so passionate about writing a book about sexual abuse and how sexual abuse can lead to sexual struggles and sexual addictions in teens and adults. I feel like it was really important to make those connections for people. So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. And you're right, like it's so hard sometimes to tell this story, even though I've told it hundreds of times. I have a lot of people in my life who still don't know my story because they know me in a completely different setting. They know me as a college professor, or they know me as the guy who plays the piano at church, or, you know, who just don't know the authentic me. And so it's a nerve-wracking when you get on here and think, well, this podcast is going to be completely public for people to hear, and anybody's gonna be able to hear my story. But that doesn't make me ashamed of my story. It's a part of who I am. It shaped me into who I am today. And it's also a blessing in it was that it's given me this ministry to be able to reach out and help other youth and teens and men outgrow this problem and mature in their sexual development. And I I'm thankful for that opportunity today.

Parenting With Openness Not Fear

SPEAKER_01 39:10

And you have also shared your story with your son.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

I have. I did not share the sexual abuse part of my story until he was an adult. But I was very careful when my kids were growing up to talk to them about types of touch and the, you know, who's allowed to touch the parts where you wear a swimsuit and why are they allowed to touch that and who's not, and you know, how to handle when somebody approaches you with something you feel confused about or parts of your body, or what's okay for a doctor to do. And if a person's not a doctor, it's not okay for them to do this and talk to my children about exposure to porn. And I so I've tried to use my own personal experiences in a healthy way to guide and develop my children in healthy ways, not put a fear in them around sexuality, not to use purity culture to condemn them, but to explain their bodies to them, their growth, their development, what's happening, normal curiosities. Um, and I've tried to just make a very open, loving, accepting discussion. And I feel like I've been successful at doing that throughout my life. And so I'm glad that God gave me the wherewithal to use my own tragedies to form them into something beautiful. You know, God says he'll turn our ashes into beauty. And I really feel like he's done that in a lot of ways in my own personal journey, in my own personal story, especially as it relates to how I showed up as a father given the example that I had.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Man, that that's so beautiful, Doug. And uh, I'm just reminded of that truth that it is so hard to see as a teenager. I would say near impossible, of why is this happening? Why am I going through this? And it's really hard to see until many years later of what God is doing through it. And I think about that all the time now of going through the struggle empowers me, walk with teens through their struggle and what they're going through, and offer a vulnerability, an authenticity, a an understanding that I never would have been able to have without going through a lot of this. And I think that's just a beautiful way you shared that truth. And another theme I see in our stories is just the silence about sex or anything of sexuality being talked about. And what an what a blessing that you've been able to do the exact opposite of let me have a lot of conversations in a very safe and vulnerable way. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

One thing I want to add to this is it took me several years into adulthood to admit that I had been sexually abused. You know, I I had what I would call from a clinical psychologist standpoint, several symptoms of somebody who had been abused, but I never framed it in that way because the most of most of my abuse happened with other kids, sometimes kids who were older than I am, but kids. And I always just kind of viewed it as exploration. And then when I really sat down and began to study the process of sexual abuse and how it's connected to sexual addiction, I really had to come to grips with the fact that the things that I went through were of a sexual abusive nature. And they resulted in specific behaviors that created a sexual struggle. And that was hard to come to grips with. And then they finally disclose. In our adulthood.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

And I had all the knowledge. I was a clinical psychologist. I was studying this. I had a I had a master's degree in addiction, but yet I was still busy connecting the own piece, my own pieces of my own story and how they fit together and being able to accept the truth of my story.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

And so there's a huge lesson in that for all of us that however much we think we know about our story or however much we learn, there's always more layers to uncover, to process.

A Father’s Apology That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_01 44:38

One layer that really stood out to me, Doug, was your dad thinking that he was doing the right thing by leaving you alone. Yes. How did you experience being left alone by your dad?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Oh. Oh, I just felt completely abandoned. I felt worthless. I felt like this man has a son and doesn't even give him the time of day. I must be completely awful. I must be worthless. And then I think throughout the years, my dad became resentful of the enmeshment that I had with my mother. And so he started teasing us about our relationship and make would make derogatory comments about the relationship that I had with my mother and that I was her husband. And it was really, really awful until the point where my dad, well, I don't think my dad ever hated me. I think he always loved me, but I definitely hated him. And then when I was probably around 21, he met me for lunch one day and just decided to tell me his story and ask me for forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

That he abandoned me for all those years and he thought he was doing right by leaving me alone because he didn't want to abuse me. And that completely changed the trajectory of my adult relationship with him to where my dad became my best friend. Wow. He died in my arms a couple of years ago. And it's one of the most beautiful and tragic things that I've ever had to live through. But I'm so glad that we found our healing and that he was able to be authentic with his story and tell me that what he did to me, he did out of love, but he realized that it was extreme detriment. And he was truly sorry for that. And we found, we found divine healing in our story and in our journey. And which makes me another, another reason why I'm so passionate about the this podcast is the relationship between father and sons is so important, no matter what's happened. I, if you would have told me at 20 years old that next year you were going to reconcile with your dad, I would have laughed in your face and said, You're a nut job. There's no way this is going to happen. But when I heard my dad's story, I had deep compassion for what he lived through and what he tried to do. And it changed my heart.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Well, and I I can't I can't tell you how often I have this conversation with parents who have a teen that's going through something like this. And I tell them this exact truth of it is never too late to share your story with deep authenticity, with deep ownership, with true apology and the desire to do it differently moving forward. It can change everything. I have a lot of deep parental pain in my life. If they came to me today with deep ownership, deep apology, deep desire to do it differently, oh my gosh, uh it would change the entire trajectory of everything.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yes. I tried so hard to be to my children the dad that I didn't have. And I showered them with so much love, I was almost concerned I was going to turn them into narcissists. Because I just because I just tried to shower them with love and kisses and hugs and connection.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

And um but and yet it sounds like they didn't turn out like narcissists.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

They did not. I think they're very, very emotionally healthy, stable young people.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Wow. How about that?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

And for anyone whose parents are not in the place of being ready to respond that way, your healing does not depend on them.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

No.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

You can get free and grow regardless of what your parents do or don't do. And also that is an opportunity for any parent to please strongly consider to do what Doug's dad did.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Your children long for you. Your children long for you to be intimate with them. They long for you to share your heart with them and your story with them.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

To be vulnerable. And then also the second part was owning your impact. Yes. Not just saying, I did the best I could.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Oh I'm having a reaction here because so often parents get so close, and that's the one thing they miss. They say what Doug, you were saying about your dad of, hey, I was trying to do this out of love, and they stop there. They essentially say, Therefore, don't be mad at me about this. And your impacts aren't real. And I shouldn't hold any of your disappointment because I was doing it out of love, but to instead say, I was trying my best out of love, and it still really jacked you up. And I'm aware of those causes, and I'm really, really sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

And my dad was man enough to own that that day. And he really owned that, that what I what I've done to you is the exact opposite of what I wanted to do to you. I think that's the most necessary element. Yes. And that's what turned on my compassion. It unlocked my heart that day, that he really saw me and he saw himself. You know, and many years throughout my adult life, he said to me, I'm really sorry for your childhood and how I wasn't there. But I've really tried to be here for you as an adult. And we had beautiful moments as an adult that didn't take away the scars and the wounds from childhood, but it did bring healing to them. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

This is so sacred. Yeah. These are the conversations we hope will come out of this podcast. When I first got counseling from someone trained by the Allender Center to process my sexual abuse and enmeshment with my mom and abandonment by my dad, and things that we've actually discussed publicly on a podcast called Healing with My Parents. In that counseling journey, I realized that I needed more boundaries with my mom and that I wanted more connection with my dad. So I invited my dad to go hiking with me. And for two hours I asked him questions asking, what did your parents teach you about sexuality? What kind of sex talk did you get? What were your experiences as a teenager? And he was open to sharing, and eventually he said, you know what, Drew? I did a lousy job of that for you, and I'm sorry. And I just wept. We want to invite you with wisdom and hopefully a lot of safety to consider what it might look like to start a conversation like that.

How To Start The Conversation Safely

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah. So for any teens or young adults who are listening, how would you recommend approaching that conversation with a parent to ask about their story?

SPEAKER_04 52:31

I mean, we probably need a whole podcast on just that, but I think as kids, we have some in inherent discernment about us. And what I want to say to that is if you're able to say, my parents are safe people and can handle that conversation, then you can ask a question like that. Or maybe just send them this podcast, right? And say, hey, there's I would love if you would listen to this and if we could talk about some of the things they said at the end there. That way all the weight isn't on you of inspiring this whole conversation. If your answer to that is maybe, hey, I'm not sure my parents are safe people, I would say, uh, find a church near you, find find a youth pastor, find a mentor, someone who is safe, and say, hey, stuff's really hard at home right now. And there's some things I'm I'm intrigued to talk about. And maybe they're the people who can have a conversation with you. Maybe they help you get connected with a counselor or a therapist of some kind. As you've heard for all three of us, that was a part of our journey. And so uh having a counselor, having a therapist is a great step of healing and having these things. But that's where I would start out with for the teens and people listening.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

And on the flip side of that, as a child, I knew that my dad's growing up years was jacked up somehow because my grandpa tried to physically abuse me and my parents put a stop to it immediately. And then later he did sexually inappropriate things with me that they never knew about, but he was found out later to be a sex offender. And so it's not like my dad didn't know that I knew that his life was not roses. So why are we burying our heads in the sand and ignoring something that's right in front of us? We might as well call it out. You know, we always use this phrase, there's an elephant in the room. Well, just because you're touching the trunk and I'm touching the tail, it's still an elephant. It is still in the room.

unknown 54:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

So, Doug, how would you advise a father or a father figure to start this conversation?

SPEAKER_00 54:54

You know, I I look back at the way my dad started the conversation with me, and he just kind of said, you know, there's probably a lot that's happened in your life that you don't understand. And there's probably a lot of things about me that you don't understand. Because I've never really opened up and shared who I was and parts of my story with you so you could get to know me. And I'd like to do that. And I'd like to try to explain some things. He definitely had my attention. You know, I think it's just clear honesty and authenticity that hey, you know, there are parts of us that we don't know very well. And maybe we could get to know each other better if we spent some time together and talked.

SPEAKER_04 55:44

To jump on that, Doug, what I hear from your dad there, and to just frame it of like, don't protect yourself in this conversation. Protect your kids with your vulnerability. You lay yourself out on the table to give them what they need. And it's the number one thing I see parents do wrong in these conversations is I try to protect some sense of my own identity, pride, worthwhile nice that's attached to being a quote unquote good parent. And so, hey, here's the reasons I did these things, and you get that, right? No, but protect your kids. Don't protect yourself. Say, I'm sure there's a lot you don't understand that, I don't understand that. I've probably done wrong. I've probably caused a lot of pain. And I just want to know you to know that we can talk about that. And I'm here to own my wrongs and my mistakes and try to build something better with you.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

One way my dad opened the conversation was he said, I realize and I know that you hate me and I understand why. Wow. And I thought, you can't possibly understand why. But he did. He truly did.

SPEAKER_04 56:58

Even just owning that's such a beautiful thing, though. We're so prone to say, you shouldn't hate me, and here's why. But instead, he led with, I know you hate me, and I understand why. Yes. I get that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

And maybe I want to learn more about that.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

Mm-hmm. He he clearly had enough stability to say, tell me more. I can handle that for your sake.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

He didn't run from my hatred. He walked, he walked into it. Wow. Further pushed his way into it.

SPEAKER_04 57:33

Amen. Celebrate your dad, Doug. Absolutely. What a guy.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

We want more relationships like that in this world. Yes. Amen. Blake, for any teen or young adult who uh might be open to telling their sexual story, what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_04 57:58

Take your next right step, whatever that is. And I would say find a way to tell it to somebody. And you use the best discernment you have on you right now to find your safest person. Who, to the best of my knowledge, would hear and listen to this story well. If that's my mom, if that's my dad, if that's my youth pastor, if that's a coach, teacher, teacher, small group leader, whoever it is, who who would hear and listen to this well. And a lot of times, like for example, if you want to come work with me and we'll we'll do a lot of work around this, I would be honored by that. And as a teenager, there are some needs for parental uh authorization and signing off on those things. And so if it is a parent, say, hey, would you would you be okay if I work with someone on this? Can we walk that process together? If it's not a parent, using your coach, your mentor, your your trusted adult leader to say, hey, can you help me have this conversation with my parents that so that we can get me involved with someone like Blake or Drew or Doug or a counselor therapist near me? Can you uh can you help me with that? I I could use some support.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

Awesome.

Submit Questions And Final Encouragement

SPEAKER_01 59:24

And if you have specific questions you would like us to answer on this podcast, go down to the description in the show notes for this episode, click the link where you can submit a question, and there is no wrong question.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

None. Not at all. No question too weird, too abnormal, absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

And on this theme of telling our stories, no story is too big, too broken, too messed up, and also no story is too small, no story is too vanilla or or too nice to be real. Amen. Amen. That's right. So thank you for listening to our stories. We look forward to engaging with some of you and hearing more of yours as you outgrow porn at any age.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

At any age. At any age.